Patina on Lead Came...

[stainedinglass]

Hi All

Having done a couple of projects now where I've used patina on lead came I have to say I'm not overly impressed with the results.

Having read numerous articles about the 'best' way to achieve a black even finish I feel a little baffled by the end results I'm getting, that being a patchy uneven finish with spots where the patina did not seem to take to the came. Whats even worse, is after allowing it to dry and then rinsing the panel the patina seems to almost rub off as it it was only sitting on the surface of the came - several times I've had to re-apply the patina to achieve a result I'm even moderately satified with.

Using combinations of amonia / alcohol / various cleaners / wire wool / vinegar / salt to name but a few to clean off any flux residue, I don't think I could make the panel any cleaner to be honest 

What am I doing wrong? I'm so fustrated by this. Does lead came inherently have this problem? Am I still not cleaning it properly? Am I not applying it properly? I've tried being sparing and lavish with the patina to no avail. Is my (tap) water causing a problem?

Help me...  any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Pete 

[Rebecca]

I am guessing that the reason you aren't getting replies is that most people don't use patina on lead came.  Since I don't do it, I don't have any advice for using it. 

Rebecca

[Javahut]

a suggestion? 
Don't use patina on lead came, you don't need it.
A glossy even black finish can be had by buffing with a natural bristle,( not nylon!) brush after cementing/grouting/puttying,(or whatever name you have for getting weatherproofing material between the glass and lead flanges).  you can shove it under the leaves any way you want, get the excess off best way you can, sprinkle a little powder (dry material you are shoving under the leads) and brush all excess oils and materail off the window.  Get it cleqaned best you can and then have at it like you are shining shoes with a natural bristle bush and it will shine.  Have also heard and seen guys use burlap to achieve same results.  Me?  I have a Harbor Freight variable speed sander/buffer with a natural bristle bush head I just pull the trigger and it saves my 58 year old shoulders for another day!!

[stainedinglass]

Thanks for your replys.

The project is done and dusted now and the customer was very happy, although time comsuming we ended up 'touching up' the patina until we achived the desired effect. However, should the situation arise I quiet like the idea of the buffer, one can never complain about anything that takes the strain out of vigorous rubbing 

The patina was requested by the customer and customer is king right?  With an alternative method next time it won't be so scary.

Thanks again.

[Rebecca]

Is this the tool?

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=92623

Rebecca

[Javahut]

Hi Rebecca,
Yes that is the tool, but I have adapted a natural bristle brush to it, so it works inthe same way that a hand brush does, and leaves a very glossy dark surface.  I have used light cement and turned the lead dark and glossy, it does not work well on zinc cames, it imparts a dark surface to the zinc that needs to be wiped off while still warm.( friction)  I sell the brushes, send me a note I will go into detail, they are rather inexpensive.

[JRDurr]

Pete,

As stated by others, do not use patinas on the leads and solder joints. The addition of these castic materials will hasten the lead joint failure. My shop does it the old fashion way. We clean excess mud by putting saw dust on the panel and then removing the saw dust and mud with cotten rags. We then buff with whiteing, powder calcim carbonate, then we pick the excess mud from the flanges with sharpened dowels. We let the panels sit on the bench for a few days to let the mud set up and then repeat the buffing again and the  removal of any mud that has leached out of the lead.

JRDurr

[Javahut]

As in as great many things stained glass related, everyone seems to have their own variation of the "right" way to do things. 
When I mix my putty/grout/cement/(weatherproofing material to go under the lead leaves and between the glass) I like to get it donw, and not fool with it over several days.  I have need of that table space. When I use the "stuff", for lack of a better tem, I get it on and under the lead and keep brushing, removing excess material and putting it back in the can. as most of it is removed, I then use the dry material I just used wet to absorb oils, brush it a bit and let it sit for an hour or so.  Then I have at it with the power brush, ( machine Rebecca linked to with my brush on it)  I run it over the panel wioth that tad bit of whiting and do a basic clean up.  I try to do this just before go home time.  In the morning I run a stick over it to dress it up and remove the obvious overage, brush lightly with a hand brush, then have at it with a power brush again.  In doing this, the friction of the natural bristle brush with the power machine will give a very glossy BLACK surface to the lead, and that will happen no matter what coloran, or lack thereof, is in the cement mix.  Works with just whiting and linseed oil, lead still turns black. don't want it black? wipe it with an old rag, will turn gloss grey. 


My arms and shoulders are 58 years old and get sore easily.

[JRDurr]

Javahut,

Noticed in your posting that you like to get the job done and that you need the bench space after you have completed the mudding of the panel. It has been the position of the SGAA in the Tech and Reference Manual that freshly mudded panels should lie flat for a few days. This allows for the mud to set. We stack the panels on wooden shelves that use 2x4's as shims between each panel laden board. On larger projects we use a rack that we made with the capacity for 20 shelves.

JRDurr

[Javahut]

Merely a difference of opinion, as in other things glass related.
I have seen your posts here sir, but can find no mention of your studio, might I ask where you are located?  I am curious.

Most of my panels are delievered and installed within a few days of cementing/grouting/ puttying/ mudding up. the formula I mix allows for a quite rigid panel in a few days, and no, I do not use portland cement.

[Rebecca]

What formula do you use?  I like for mine work to lie flat for a week or so before installation.

Rebecca

[JRDurr]

JavaHut,

JRDurr is just a short handel for Jerome R Durr. My studio is in Syracuse NY and you can reach me at my e mail, which is not hidden in my profile, at jrdurr0art@aol.com or on the web at jeromedurr.com.

JRDurr

[Javahut]

Rebecca, I have 4 tables in my studio space, 3 for leaded glass, there is no way I can leave something flat on there for a week, nor would I want to.  I get them done, give them 2 days max, in a vertical rack, then install them, whatever "setting" they need they will get for the next 80 years or so, long after I am gone.  I do NOT make my cement(terminology only for lack of a better name) so loose it runs out of the cames, it gets a good firmness overnight and by day two it is quite stiff, yet pliable to a point. 
I use a formual that is posted all over the place, but I do not use portland cement, I do use No.1 molding plaster with the whiting, I also use turp with Linseed oil, have done so for 30 years. 

Jerome, will look up your studio, thank you.