copper foiling

[Enrique Laks]

I would like to know why most stained glass windows in America are leaded. Copper foiling would probably be more convenient for painted stained glass because it allows to better hide the lines between the glass, thus improving the designs. Also, I understand that leaded stained glass is expected to last for about 80 years without maintenance, is there any similar experience or rule regarding copper foiled stained glass?

[JRDurr]

To lead or not to lead, to foil or not to foil, to fuse or not to fuse,to paint or not too, or any of the other techniques to arrive at a finished glass piece is up to the designer, or dictated by the client. To deem one approach is better than another, in some cases, is because of style and popularity of the times. Overwhelmingly, in my opinion, it is up to the designer and fabrictor to make the piece work with the technique of choice. Again in my opinoin, not the technique determining the success of the piece, but how you the practitioner solve the artistic merits of the piece. I will also add that good craftsmanship go hand in hand with good design for determing the success of the work.

JRDurr

[Enrique Laks]

Would it be reasonable to think that the usual choice to leading instead of foiling is due to its lower labor cost? Or is there less interest in getting involved in a more labor intensive technique? The few foiling jobs I've noticed in churches and museums miss really good foiling craftsmanship. Or there are perhaps no artists or craftspeople interested in perfectioning the foiling technique?

[jack]

Copper foiling is perceived by the stained glass industry as the first step in learning stained glass.  It is easier, is usually the first class a hobbyist takes, and little effort is made to explain the craftsmanship for really impressive copper foiling, which includes equal widths of lines determined by accuracy of cutting the glass.  Copper foil is not a "waterproof" process; so it should probably be limited to interior installations that have vented protective coverings to the exterior.  Many hobbiests think that it is "stronger" and therefore you don't need rebar--not true.  Copper foiled pieces subject to direct sunlight do not allow for expansion of the glass; I have seen cracked pieces caused by the inability of the glass to move because of the solder/copper foil.

My main reason for using primarily lead is because of its centuries of tradition and skill necessary to fabricate.  There is a lot of poorly constructed copper foil panels out there; especially those on the market that are mass-produced.  I have had many lamps and panels brought to me that are falling apart; not from poor glass cutting (the glass is probably waterjet cut and fits perfectly), but the copper foil used is so thin that the solder joints are less than 1/8" inch and will not hold the glass together. 

Leaded windows have the perception of being higher quality; it does take a more skilled craftsman to cut and assemble a leaded panel than a copper foiled panel.  So cost of fabrication is an issue to some.  With the rising cost of solder these days, the use of primarily lead is becoming more cost effective.  However; I do not consider the cost when choosing between the two.  Fabricating using lead is preferred by most studios; there are only a few exceptions--extremely detailed panels with interior applications that don't get direct sunlight and are not subject to rain.  Even then, I won't put a copper foiled panel in a 150 year old home; as it violates my sense of compatibility.  The copper foil would be an anachronism for the home--it was not even invented 150 years ago!  Obviously, the only way to construct three dimensional pieces is copper foil.
 So, each has its advantages and disadvantages.

[Vic Rothman]

While I agree with your remarks. Cooper foil has been with us about 125 years. There is an 1886 patent given to Sanford Bray of Boston for making copper foil windows.

[Enrique Laks]

Craftsmanship definitely is most important. A very well built copper foiled window is as "waterproof" as a leaded window. On the other hand, copper foiling is superb for very first quality stained glass artwork fully painted a la grisaille.
Today we are seeing a revival of the art of painting on glass. I posted this "copper foiling" subject for discussion because I think that stained glass artists in the United States view this technique with disdain, only good for learning stained glass or for hobbyists, not for real stained glass artists, I find that to be a wrong approach. It might be convenient to study this alternate technique for stained glass painters. It seems to be easy to copper foil but learning first quality copper foiling needs however lots of time and practice.

[JRDurr]

Yes there is a certain amount of derision to the technique of copper foil as opposed to the use of lead by some studio owners. I thought your original premise was that foil was a better solution to creating a stained glass window when using a painted figure. I believe as stated in my posting that the technique is not what makes the piece but good design and craftsmanship. I find the debate as to foil or lead as being one superior to the other liken  to college 2am dorm conversation.

JRDurr

[JRDurr]

Enrique,

There is an excellent example of a painted figure window in the Virgina Museum of Fine Arts by Georges de Feure. I believe the use of the lead line enhances the piece. I will agree with you that there are too many examples of leaded figure windows with out a care as how the head fits into the design.

JRDurr

[Enrique Laks]

I agree that both techniques are good, I guess it is up to the customer, the studio and the artist to decide together which one to use. I feel however that copper foiling might be more convenient when the window's design mostly calls for many small curved pieces of glass. The foiled lines might be able to better follow the design's curves. I feel that the final work of art would be enhanced by allowing the lines to be part of the design itself, instead of having some of them crossing through the design, which I feel might happen more often than wished when leading.
I never suggested to debate if foil or lead is one superior to the other. I only wanted to call stained glass artists in the USA to open themselves  to foil's possible advantages for certain works of art. Excellent copper foil's craftsmanship would however be needed and it might not be thoroughly available if foiling is not regarded as an option.

[Enrique Laks]

Please notice this 212 sq ft stained glass work of art installed in a home in Costa Rica with the shape of an apse (abside). It was designed by Sylvia Laks, built by Sylvia Laks Stained Glass Art Studio and entirely copper foiled. I wonder if it would have been possible to attain the beauty of this stained glass apse by leading those very intricately curved pieces of glass instead of copper foiling them.

[Vic Rothman]

Please notice this 212 sq ft stained glass work of art installed in a home in Costa Rica with the shape of an apse (abside). It was designed by Sylvia Laks, built by Sylvia Laks Stained Glass Art Studio and entirely copper foiled. I wonder if it would have been possible to attain the beauty of this stained glass apse by leading those very intricately curved pieces of glass instead of copper foiling them.

ABSOLUTELY

[Enrique Laks]

Thank you Vic for your prompt reply. Please excuse my limited knowledge of the English language which forces me to ask you please for the meaning of your comment: did you mean ABSOLUTELY YES  or  ABSOLUTELY NO ?

[Enrique Laks]

I would sincerely like to interest the members of the SGAA in the convenience of foiling part of their stained glass work for better design. I felt that the apse could be a good example but perhaps the attached apse's picture was too small due to the maximum attachment's size allowed. I will try to attach the apse's cartoon which should better help visualize it.

[Vic Rothman]

Thank you Vic for your prompt reply. Please excuse my limited knowledge of the English language which forces me to ask you please for the meaning of your comment: did you mean ABSOLUTELY YES  or  ABSOLUTELY NO ?

Sorry
ABSOLUTELY YES  
The link below is to an article in Stained Glas Quarterly on 2 John La Farge windows I restored. All the work is lead.
http://www.sgaaonline.com/pdf/071-LaFarge.pdf

[Enrique Laks]

I thank you Richard for helping this forum by posting here the apse's cartoon. I am also grateful to Jack, Jerome and Vic for posting their very valuable opinions.
This cartoon shows one of eight sections for the apse, the large part is 87" H x 21? W. There is no painting involved in this project, only colored glass.
I have started this debate when I realized, perhaps wrongly, that the foiling system for assembling stained glass windows, although it was created in America, seems not to be used in America y more as I felt it should be, due to reasons still unknown to me.
For more than twenty years, in Sylvia Laks Studio we have restored stained glass windows for fifteen churches and made new windows for ten churches, including some of the most important catholic churches and cathedrals of Costa Rica. Those windows we restored were made between 80 and 120 years ago in France, Switzerland, Germany, Italy and Austria. We have also restored here a beautiful 1895, 98? H x 42? W original L. C. Tiffany stained glass art work. All those windows were leaded.
We have also built hundreds of new stained glass windows for churches, hotels, institutions and homes in this country, some were leaded and some were foiled.
Besides our stained glass work, we also represent Bendheim in Central America, we sell glass and supplies to most people engaged in stained glass in this area of the world.
This experience has lead us, perhaps mistakenly, to prefer foil to lead. I hope the apse?s cartoon posted here helps to start a debate:
Which system is better for this apse?s project, lead or foil?
It would help this debate however to read reasons, not only opinions. Wich system would make the apse look better? which one is more labor intensive? which one is costlier? any opinions and reasons would help.
I am insistent on this subject: LEAD OR FOIL because I feel that stained glass studios and artists in America should not disregard copper foiling as a possible good alternative for their projects.
I would like to finish this re-introduction to the debate mentioning that, regarding strength, we have built several stained glass skylights, some as large as 300 square feet, and all of them, absolutely all are very, very strong. It is very important to let you know that we have never ever had a single complaint regarding our stained glass work.