soap

[zig]

What is the best soap (or dishwashing liquid) to use to clean old church windows without damaging them?

tks. zig

[zig]

Whoops, I also meant to ask about what caulk should be used between the window and the sash

[griffith]

A good detergent is horse shampoo. It is ph neutral and very mild. Try it in an inconspicuous place first with a natural bristle brush (not a plastic bristle brush). You should be able to get both at a tack supply store.

Do not push hard on the panels if they are in place. Be extremely careful with the painted work to be sure the paint was fired correctly (if it was fired at all).

Elden

[zig]

Thanks!

[Richard Gross]

I am a little bit concerned about possible long-term effects of using horse shampoo on old glass. I have shampooed a lot of horses in my life; horse shampoo has quite a bit of lanolin in it to make manes and tails shine. I don't really know what (if any) long-term effect the lanolin might have on the glass, but I would be concerned about it.

Part of the entry on Cleaning in the Stained Glass Association of America's Standards and Guidelines for the Preservation of Historic Glass reads:

Fragile paint may be cleaned over a light table, employing naphtha. Sound, unpainted panels may be soaked in a heated tank of non-ionic surfactant and soft water. Sound, painted panels can also be soaked, but not longer than four hours at any one time. Panels being soaked should be inspected for possible damage in between soakings. Waste water from these operations may contain lead or other harmful substances and should be disposed of accordingly.

[Vic Rothman]

I am a little bit concerned about possible long-term effects of using horse shampoo on old glass. I have shampooed a lot of horses in my life; horse shampoo has quite a bit of lanolin in it to make manes and tails shine. I don't really know what (if any) long-term effect the lanolin might have on the glass, but I would be concerned about it.

Part of the entry on Cleaning in the Stained Glass Association of America's Standards and Guidelines for the Preservation of Historic Glass reads:

Fragile paint may be cleaned over a light table, employing naphtha. Sound, unpainted panels may be soaked in a heated tank of non-ionic surfactant and soft water. Sound, painted panels can also be soaked, but not longer than four hours at any one time. Panels being soaked should be inspected for possible damage in between soakings. Waste water from these operations may contain lead or other harmful substances and should be disposed of accordingly.

i believe that the ph neutral horse soap refereed to is "orvis" which is generally speced out in restoration projects

[Richard Gross]

Thanks, Vic, for providing a brand name. Orvus isn't something that would have come to mind as a horse shampoo. If someone were to walk into a farm supply and ask for simply a horse shampoo without having a brand name, they could likely end up with a product like Mane N Tail, Citronella Shampoo, Miracle Coat Luxor with Oatmeal, or Quic Black -- they are all great horse shampoos and some of them even repel flies, but I have doubts about cleaning painted glass with them.

[griffith]

Thanks for clearing that up with a brand name, and for the concerns regarding lanolin etcetera. Good info.
I guess I assumed that the question was about how to clean the panels "in situ", which would eliminate the soaking techniques. A naptha soulution is a good recommendation though, even for cleaning panels in place.

Elden

[Kaf]

Fragile paint may be cleaned over a light table, employing naphtha. Sound, unpainted panels may be soaked in a heated tank of non-ionic surfactant and soft water. Sound, painted panels can also be soaked, but not longer than four hours at any one time. Panels being soaked should be inspected for possible damage in between soakings. Waste water from these operations may contain lead or other harmful substances and should be disposed of accordingly.

Should you be wearing head gear while working with naptha? For the fumes? What planet do I need to go to , to purchase non Ionic surfactant ? English translation please. Soft water as opposed to ? If I have city water is that soft enough? How do I find out? Should I buy a water bed and sleep on it? What happens if the paint is sound and I accidently leave it submerged for 4 and a half hours? Does the glass need a breather in between four hour soakings? and for how long? Can I empty the tank, give it a minute and refill it, or should I wait over night? And whom do I call to dispose of things accordingly?

[alyson]

I'd like to second the question about "proper disposal," not having read the SGAA booklet (give me time, I'll get a copy, but in the meantime...).  Normal lead waste can be sent to a recycler; what do you do with such minute waste as you'd find in the water?  How can a commercial enterprise dispose of it safely, without taking up a lot of space and time?  I find myself picturing them being asked to pour it through a sieve, or leave it in a shallow pool to evaporate...

As for if the panels are being cleaned while upright, what do you think of using whiting?  It avoids the problem of old cement turning to thin mud that takes forever to clean from the edges.  You would keep a shopvac handy for dust control; dip a rag in whiting and rub each piece.  The lead would be best avoided because the whiting would shine it up and require you to do it everywhere.  This is a method I've used on panels that have been removed for cleaning but that are not being entirely releaded--actually, I use a natural-bristle brush as much as a rag, but that would be too cloudy if the panel were vertical.  I could see it taking a long time on a big church panel, but it's low-tech and volunteers could potentially be recruited.

So what do you think of that method?  Would it be pooh-poohed as overly time-consuming or abrasive, or does anyone else use it?

Also, zig asked about the caulk to be used between the window and the sash.  Would appropriately-colored Dap do the trick?